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Kopan kolları yeniden uzatabilmek…

Kasım 4, 2008 at 23:10 · Filed under Ben Düygü Hanım nasılım, Bilim ve felsefe, Doktora

Son birkaç aydır gece geç vakitlere kadar labda kalıp çok yoğun çalışmaya başladım. Görünürde bir sınav, tez savunması vs olmamasına rağmen, günlerden bir gün beynimde bir sigortanın “tınnnnggg” diye atması ile bu garip yoğunluğun içine girmiş buldum kendimi. Deneylerin sonuçlarını garip bir heyecanla bekliyorum, bazı teknikleri oturtabilmek için saatlerce oturduğum yerden kalkmadan saplantılı bir uğraş içine giriyorum, tam bir “manyak bilim adamı” gibiyim. Uzun zamandır böyle heyecanlı hissetmiyordum. Sonunda bilim insanı olma işinin ruhunu yakaladım galiba!

Bu arada Salsa öğrenmek, Evrim Çalışkanı olmak, Çince öğrenmek gibi işlere de bulaştığımdan buraya yazmaya vakit bulamadım. Harika bir bahar havasına ve seçim heyecanına gark olmuş bu 4 Kasım günü diğerlerinden daha az yoğun bir gün olmamakla birlikte, sonunda her şeye bir dur deyip yazmaya oturdum ve sizlere labda böyle harıl harıl nelerle uğraştığımdan bahsedeceğim, canım okuyucu.

Biraz bilimsel bir yazı olacağını önceden söyleyeyim, vaktin varken daha eğlenceli bloglara kaç. Değilse, hayatımın büyük bölümüne yayılmış olan işin ne olduğunu öğrenme vakti gelmiştir. Git bi çay koy önce. (Ben almiyim teşekkür ederim, az önce kafe o le yani sütlü kahve içtim, gece uykum kaçmasın).

Bundan 9 ay önce, kimileriniz hatırlayacaktır, bağımsızlığımı yeniden kazanmış, kölelik icra ettiğim korkunç laboratuvara, despot hocama ve ezik karısına “adyö” diyerek şu anda bulunduğum okula transfer olmuştum. Bunun müthiş doğru bir karar olduğunu anlamam pek uzun sürmedi. Şu anda Ken Muneoka adında harika bir hoca ile çalışıyorum. Oldukça kalabalık bir ekiple, Amerikan ordusunun İleri Teknoloji Savunma Projeleri Ajansı (yani DARPA) tarafından finanse edilen bir “kopan kolları bacakları yeniden nasıl uzatırız projesi”nin bir ucundan tuttuk her birimiz.

Amerikan ordusu deyince bir irkildin sevgili okur, ama irkilme. Ya da irkil, ama dur bir dinle. Kendi web sitesinde de yazdığı üzere DARPA, başarısızlığa uğrama riski yüksek olsa da eğer başarılı olursa çok ciddi bilimsel ve teknolojik ilerlemeler (hatta sıçramalar, üçlü saltolar) sağlayabilecek araştırma projelerini yürüten bir kurum. Şu anda bu satırların zat-ı alileriniz tarafından okunabiliyor olması, ve bendeniz tarafından yazılabiliyor olması da DARPA’nın Internet’i geliştirmiş olması ile mümkündür. Keza, GPS de DAPRA’nın başının altından çıkmıştır ki yabancı bir ülkeyi GPS olmadan gezmeye çalışmış bir insan olarak ben bile GPS’in ne kadar hastalıklı güzel bir teknoloji olduğunu söyleyebilirim (bırakın uçaklarda, orda burda kullanılıyor oluşunu). Normalde bilimsel araştırmalar için fon sağlayan kurumların “deli misin gardeşim, de get, bu projeye bir sent bilem vermeyiz” diyeceği delice fikirler DARPA tarafından paraya boğulabilirler (boğulmayabilirler de, ya da önce boğulup bir anda dımdızlak bırakılabilirler). Böyle şizofren bir kurum işte DARPA.
Biz de hocamızın saksıyı ciddi bir performansla çalıştırabilen bir adam olmasından ve adamlara gidip “aklıma süper bi fikir geldi” demesinden dolayı DARPA’ya bu milyon dolarlık “Rejenerasyon” projesini yapan bir labız.

Olay şu: Kertenkelenin kuyruğu kopuyor, misler gibi yeniden büyüyor peki biz insanlarda bu özellik neden yok? Evrim ağacında bir noktada ortaya çıkmış olan bu yetenek, memelilerde (yani insanları da içine alan hayvan grubunda) yok mu, hiç mi yok, hakkaten mi?

yukarıdaki resimlerde semenderin kopan/kesilen kolunun yeniden nasıl uzadığı aşama aşama gösteriliyor.

ayrıca şurada müthiş bir videosu da mevcut.

Bu soruları cevaplamak için yola çıkan bilim insanlarından bir tanesi (benim hocamın hocası, ata bilimci) “En iyisi semender hayvanında bu iş nasıl oluyor, kopan kolu nasıl oluyor da eksiksiz yeniden uzuyor, önce onu araştırayım” demiş. Bana kadar uzanan olaylar silsilesi böyle başlamış (olayları hemen kendi eksenim etrafında döndürmeyi bu cümle ile başardım, yazarlık yönüm kuvvetlidir hamdolsun). Kendisinin ismi David Gardiner. Gardiner’ın labında bir zamanlar doktora öğrencisi olan hocam ise, kendi labını kurduktan sonra, bu işi evrimsel olarak (dolayısıyla genler bazında) insanlara daha yakın olan bir canlıda, mesela farelerde nasıl araştırabiliriz diye düşünürken, öğrenmiş ki aslında fareler (dolayısıyla memeliler) aslında az da olsa rejenerasyon özelliğine sahipler (yani memeliler olarak sıfır kapasite değiliz, bizde de bi iki numara mevcut). Zira farenin parmak ucu kesildiğinde yeniden uzayabiliyor. Hatta bu potansiyel aslında insanlarda (özellikle çocuklarda) da var, fakat günümüzde geleneksel tıbbın yara iyileştirme uygulamaları meğer bu rejeneratif potansiyeli yok ediyormuş. (Geneneksel metodların tesadüfen uygulanamamasının sonucu olarak parmak ucu sapasağlam uzayan hastalar var tıbbi kayıtlarda).

Şu anda labımızdaki çoğu kişi farenin parmak ucunun nasıl rejenere olduğunu, biraz daha geriden kesilen parmağın ise neden rejenere olamadığını, bir takım büyüme etkenleri (growth factors) kullanılarak rejenerasyonun tetiklenip tetiklenemeyeceğini araştırıyor. Bendeniz ise fareler yerine tavuk embriyosunu kendime kurban seçtim, ve hayvanceğizlerin dirsek eklemi nasıl gelişiyor, ve bu dirsek eklemi kesilip çıkarılırsa rejenere oluyor mu, evet galiba oluyor, vay be peki bu nasıl oluyor, ile uğraşıyorum.

yukarıda tavuk embriyosunun bir kanadının kemiklerinin özel bir boya ile boyanmış halini görüyorsunuz.

DARPA’nın en büyük derdi, elbette Irak’ta (ya da ABD o an için artık hangi anlamsız savaşın içinde, hangi ülkeyi yerlebir ediyor ise orada) kolunu bacağını kaybeden askerlerine eski hayatlarını yeniden sağlayabilmek. Fakat bizim yaptığımız araştırmalar tamamen halka açık, yani bulguların yayınlanmaması gibi bir durum söz konusu değil. Bu bakımdan eğer bu işi başarabilirsek tüm insanlığa faydalı olacağımız aşikar. Bunun için ben şimdi çok çalışmaya devam etmeye gidiyorum.

Resimler ve fotoğraflar

1) İlk fotoğraf Erdal Kınacı‘ya ait.

2) İkinci fotoğraf Gary Nafis’e ait.

3) Semenderin rejenerasyonu resimleri Ken Muneoka’nın Scientific American’da yayınlanmış olan yazısından.

4) Son fotoğraf bendenize ait.

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943 Yorum »

ycurl said,

Kasım 5, 2008 @ 00:11

Duygu, super ilginc bir projede calisiyorsun. Cok dogru karar vermissin zaten dogru kisi ile calisinca bilim daha hevesle yapiliyor. Peki simdi bir sorum var. Muhendislik gecmisi olup biyoloji olayina ucundan bulasan birisi olarak kertenkele kuyrugunu yeniden uretiyor ki herhalde bunun genetik kodu bulunabilmis midir? yani bir sekilde memelilerde de genetik kodta bu bilgi var ama cesitli mutasyonlar sonucunda bunu yitirmis olma olasiligi yuksek gibi geliyor bana evrim suresince. Cok heyecan verici bir proje. Dur hocanin makalesini de okuyayim ben.
Faruk Ahmet said,

Kasım 5, 2008 @ 02:11

Ağza bir parmak bal çalmak gibi olmuş. “Tamam, uzuyor da..nasıl, niye?” Keşke daha ayrıntılı yazabilseymişsin. Tabi sen soğuk lablarda çalışırken bizim sıcacık koltuklarımızdan “daha, daha” diye homurdanmamız biraz bencil kaçabilir ama…

Aslında yazıyı görünce “kim okuyacak bunu, çok uzun” demiştim ama ne zaman bitti anlamadım.
Bu da bir tür övgüydü sanırım.
AtillaAktuna said,

Kasım 5, 2008 @ 10:41

Aaaahh! ahhh!

Önce kurbağalar, şimdi de tavuklar…

Ve de hep embriyolar… Ne olacak bu işin sonu Düygü?

Hayvan Hakları Dernekleri’ni üzerinize salmama az zaman kalmıştır

;)
Berfu said,

Kasım 5, 2008 @ 13:10

Muazzam bir projeymis. Taa buralardan ben bile heyecanlandim, kolayliklar diliyorum.
Bu arada yazin sayesinde ben de alti aydir hicbir yere gitmeyen doktorami sorgulamaya basladim simdi. Hani kendimi bilim insani gibi hissediyorum, sonuclari dort gozle bekliyorum demissin ya…Gercekten kiskandim (nazar degmesin tabii sana), Zira bende de tam tersi bir hissiyat soz konusu:/ Neyse…bu belki de her doktora ogrencisinin atlatmak zorunda oldugu sureclerden biridir. Ben iyisi mi bu yoruma burada son verip ‘pffff sikici be bu’ diye diye yine de okumaya kastigim makaleme geri doneyim:)
tanla said,

Kasım 5, 2008 @ 17:21

Tabi ben bu yaziyi okurken tum alti cizilen teorilerin sek sek oynayarak ustunden atlayip, cekilen tavuk embriyosu resmine :”AAaa resmen “Conceptual Art” olmus bu diyerek yakistirma yapip, ve aklima gelen bir video klip anisiyla birlikte okumus olmamdan oturu, sanatin getirisi bir husuluk ve iyimserlik icerisinde okudum yazinizi.. Evet ya neden olmasin dedim.

Yazinin real kismina cuk oturmasada;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uho2NQw1GY
Düygü said,

Kasım 5, 2008 @ 23:40

Ycurl… Kertenkele, semender gibi hayvanların bu işi nasıl bu kadar mük-kem-mel yapabildiklerini tanımlayan ve hala tanımlamaya uğraşan bir çok bilimci var -ki David Gardiner bunlardan biri. Genetik kod hakkında bilinen pek çok şey olsa da, hala tamamen olayın özünü anlayabilmiş değiliz, zaten bu yüzden aynı türde bir mekanizmayı insanlarda tetikleyemiyoruz.

Memelilerde bu özelliğin mutasyonla kaybolmuş (yani o “rejenerasyon genlerinin” çalışmaz hale gelmiş) olduğu fikri pek kabul görmüyor gibi. Daha çok, başka fonksiyonlara (mesela daha karmaşık bir bağışıklık sistemine) sahip olmanın bir sonucu olarak rejenerasyon özelliğimizi kaybetmiş olabiliriz gibi görünüyor (bizim hocanın düşünceleri bu yönde).

Ben en iyisi biraz daha ayrıntılı bir yazı yazayım birkaç güne kadar :)

Faruk Ahmet… Yazıyı çok uzatmak istemediğimden ayrıntıyı az vermiştim nitekim. :)

Atillacığım, bu hayvanceğizleri telef etme konusunda inan ki çok kafa yordum, etiği vesairesi. Ama sonunda bu işin başka bir yolla yapılamayacağı bir dönemdeyiz, belki teknoloji coşar da “non-invasive” yöntemleri kullanabildiğimiz dönemlere kapı açarsa ne ala. Ama şu anda bilimsel araştırmaları yapmanın tek yolu bu malesef. Hayvan Hakları Dernekleri ile birlikte çalışılarak zaten bir sürü etik düzenleme ve sınırlama getiriliyor yapılan deneylere. Merak etmeyiniz.

Berfu… Daha çok okuyup bilgilenmek insanı daha heyecanlı yapıyor. Umarım sen de heyecanını bulursun en kısa zamanda. (Ben benimkini bulana kadar ne badireler atlattım bir bilsen, yine de kıskanır mıydın bilmiyorum :)

Tanla, video için çok teşekkürler, Tori Abla ne deli bi ablamız dedim yine. Bi de vaktim olsa bu bilimsel fotolardan filan sanatsal şeyler yapasım var, ama bir türlü vakit bulamıyorum…
riemann said,

Kasım 6, 2008 @ 05:37

Şahane yahu.. peki semenderlerin hangi özelliği onları omurgalılar arasında rejenerasyonun var olduğu tek tür yapıyor? sürecin işleyişinde rol oynayan genetik mekanizmaları sormuyorum, zaten bulmaya kastığınız şey de o anladığım kadarıyla.. daha ziyade, bu hayvanların doğal seçilime tabi olan fenotiplerinin hangi özelliği onları böyle prestijli kılmış? (yani devo’dan ziyade olayın evo boyutunu soruyorum) fenotiplerindeki ve hayat tarzlarındaki bir farklılığın bu prestijden mesul olduğunu düşünüyorum çünkü mesele genetik algoritmanın doğru sırayla kanalize edilmesi olsaydı pek çok başka omurgalının da bu özelliğe sahip olmasını beklemez miydik? Ama öte yandan, yakınsayan evrim uyarınca, farklı coğrafi bölgelerde yaşayan ama semender benzeri vücuda ve hayat tarzına sahip canlılarda bu özellik olmaması da ağırlığı tekrar genlere kaydırmama neden oluyor. Eğer semenderlerin istatiksel olarak limbleri diğer omurgalılara oranla daha sık kopuyorsa bu bir cevap olabilir seçilimin bu yönde baskı yapmasına, bunu araştırmış olan bi çalışma var mı? Gerçi rejenerasyon evrimini tamamlamış semender türlerinden ziyade, daha bu özellik hiç evrilmemişken semender atalarının istatistiğini görmek lazımdı, daha iyi bi fikir edinmek için.. aynı şekilde, rejenerasyonla geçen 2 ay içinde bu hayvanlar hayatlarını nasıl ikame ettiriyorlar? Kuyruk kopması neyse de, bacağını kesiyor yahu linkteki videodaki kadın anime semenderceğizin, böyle bidi bidi 3 bacak üstünde nasıl şey ediyolar? Hakkaten evrimsel güzergahını çok çok çook merak ediyorum bu özelliğin?

Doğal seçilimin genelde, hayvanı, bir felaket sonrası başına gelen zararları kompanse edecek özelliklerle donatmaktan çok, o zararlardan muzdarip duruma en başta düşmemeyi sağlamayı amaçlayan bir iş anlayışı olduğunu söylersem, fazla genellemiş olur muyum? Bacağın mı kopuyor güzel kardeşim? Tamam kemikleri sağlamlaştıralım, gündüzleri dışarı çıkmayı yasaklayalım, yemek stilimizi, kamuflaj özelliklerimizi, vücut ebatlarımızı regüle edelim. Aktif savunma mekanizmaları geliştirelim. Duyu organlarımızın önceliği bi basamak arttıralım. Standart tarife bunlar gibi (doğal seçilim standartlarına göre) kolay, masrafsız şeyler genelde.. ‘Bacağı komple yeniden oluşturmak’ ne demek yahu? O enerjiyle neler yapılır sen biliyo musun? Nasıl düştün bu yollara anlamıyorum ki? Acaba diyorum, adaptasyonlarının hepsini aynı sepete koymuş bir hayvanın, bir özelliğin evriminin b.kunu çıkarması olabilir mi bu nevi şahsına münhasırlık durumu? Ama o zaman aynı sepete nası girdi o uyumlar der insan, ve tam bir daire çizerek en baştaki ‘semenderi bu kadar farklı kılan şey ne?’ sorumuza geri döneriz.

mesela atıyorum kurbaalarda niye yok bu özellik? veya sincaplarda? hah, kış uykusuna yatan ve rejenerasyon için eşek yüküyle vakti olan omurgalılarda neden yok? Seçilim baskısının üstten değil de alttan geldiği, besin zincirinin tepesindeki canlılarda örneğin bir limb kaybı semenderdeki limb kaybından daha az hayati olur diyor deli gönül, onların tüm bu konsepte daha bi reseptif olmasını beklememeli miyiz? aslında türleri böyle teker teker saydıkça mevzubahis soruyu cevaplandırmak kolay olabilir gerçekten (ayılar için her kalori kıymetlidir, rejenerasyona harcayamazlar. bacaaa kopan bi kurbağa neredeyse anında yem olacağı için doğal seçilim rejenerasyonun lehinde çalışamaz. Aslanların sosyal yapıları bacaa kopan bir üyeyi grup içinde barındırmaya yatkın değildir vs.) ama böyle ‘ad hoc’ cevaplar benim hep bi kaşımın kalkmasına sebep olur, daha temel bir prensibi ıskalıyor olduğumuz hissine kapılırım. Çünkü biliyoruz ki doğal seçilim, erişimi dahilindeki bi mekanizmayı buldu mu, hayvanlar aleminde onu defalarca, birbirinden bağımsız olarak evirmekten çekinmeyen bir ablamız.. dolayısıyla ‘semenderde olan bu özellik niye diğer omurgalılarda yok?’ soruma, daha genel, teorik, türleri tek tek exhaust etmeyen bir cevap duymak isterim. (ve duyacakmışım gibi bir his var içimde bu mesaja verilen cevabın içinde)

çünkü limb kopması büyük bi sorun organizmanın hayatta kalması için, benim diyen hayvanın evirmesini beklerdim ben bu özelliği.. hemen günlük spekülasyon kontenjanımı devreye sokuyorum ve neoteni’nin olayla bi bağlantısı olabilir mi diyorum? olgunluk aşamasını hayat döngüsünde geriye aldıkça, rejenerasyonun en faal olduğu başlangıç seviyelerindeki karmaşıklığı tüm hayat için norm yapmak, en azından bi head start vermiş olabilir mi olaya?

bir de kök hücre çalışmalarıyla olan ilişkiniz nedir? Mekanizmaları net bi şekilde belirledikten sonra elinizin altında istediğiniz hücreye dönüştürebileceğiniz kök hücreler olması işinizi kolaylaştırır mıydı?

Son olarak vakti zamanında “interspecies somatic cell nuclear transfer” diye bi yöntemden bahseden bi yazı okumuştum, sizin olayınıza bi katkısı olur mu bunun? Özetle (ki sen biliyosundur zaten) bi hayvan (örneğin inek) yumurtasını alıyolar. Çekirdeğini çıkarıyolar. Çekirdeksiz hücrenin içine sıradan bir somatik (üremeyle alakası olmayan) insan hücresi koyuyolar. Sonra artık çalkalıyolar mı napıyolar tübü bilmiyorum ama bunlar bi şekilde birleşiyo, kaynaşıyo ve hayvan yumurtası, insan hücresinin çekirdiğinin emrine amade oluyor. Ortaya çıkan ucubeye de ‘cybrid’ diyolar. (gerçi hücreler daha 15. günlerini doldurmadan imha ediliyorlar) Temelde amaç kök hücre yaratmak, insan-hayvan hibridi yaratmak değil. Sizin için de bu iki genomun etkileşmesi sonucu elde edilecek veriler projeye kaydadeğer bi katkı sağlar mı, yoksa zaten halihazırda fazlasıyla deneysel olan bu yöntem şu aşamada işgüzarlıktan öteye geçmez mi?

Her şey bir yana, evrimin ışığı olmadan hagaden de hiçbir anlam ifade etmeyecek ‘savaş gazilerine yardım etmek için semenderleri inceliyorum’ şeklindeki arayışın evrensel güzelliğini göremeyen insanların tiz zamanda lobotomiye uğrayarak, gerçeklikle bağlarını fizyolojik olarak DA koparmalarını diliyorum. Böylece en azından bi mazeretleri olur eşşek oğlu eşşeklikleri için..
Düygü said,

Kasım 6, 2008 @ 17:56

Efenim öncelikle bir yanlış anlamaya sebeb vermiş olabilirim, özür dilerim: Rejenerasyon özelliği sadece semenderde olan bir şey değil. Öyle duyulmuşsa yazdıklarım ayıp etmişim. Kısa keseceğim derken olmuş herhalde. Semender sadece çeşitli sebeplerle rejenerasyonu anlamak için model olarak seçilen bir organizma. Ama başka omurgalılar da var; zebrabalığının yüzgeçleri rejenere oluyor, kurbağa larvası da öyle keza. Öte yandan “bildiğimiz kadarı ile” en kudretli rejenerasyon özelliği semender türlerinde görülüyor tabi. (Amazon’un, okyanusların filan derinliklerinde bilmediğimiz hayvanlar olabilir. Unutmamak lazım.)

Bu işin evo-devosunu çok iyi araştıramadım henüz, moleküler işlere dadanmış olmaktan dolayı. Fakat bilim dünyasının da öyle çok ciddi bilgilere sahip olmadığını zannediyorum, yoksa okuduğum review’larda filan karşıma çıkardı. Az önce Pubmed’de bulduğum bir abstract şöyle diyor:

If regeneration were adaptive, it would have arisen autonomously by natural selection from non-regenerative antecedents. Unless each episode coincidentally reinvented the same method of regeneration independently, one would expect the various lineages to differ basically from each other, which they do not. On the other hand, if regeneration were inherent to metazoan life, a derivative of embryogenesis, its various expressions should be as much like each other as they resemble the development of embryonic appendage buds, which they do. It follows that the uneven distribution of regeneration must have been due to its extinction here and there, not as a negative adaptation by natural selection but as a pleiotropic epiphenomenon linked to more useful adaptations with which it was incompatible. In vertebrate evolution, these adaptations have included the transition from aquatic to terrestrial habitats and the modification of poikilothermic to homeothermic metabolism. The former advance rendered the regeneration of weight-bearing limbs impractical; the latter favored rapid wound healing and scar formation which effectively precluded blastema formation. If the latent capacity for regeneration persists in non-regenerative appendages, as would seem to be the case, then the restoration of its overt expression should be possible if the mechanisms of its inhibition could be discovered and eventually rendered ineffectual.

Makalenin orjinaline ulaşamadım, ulaşırsam sana mail atarım.
Çilekli pasta said,

Kasım 6, 2008 @ 18:22

Sayfanıza bayıldım, bir harikasınız! Bu yazıda çok ilgimi çekti. irtibata geçmeyi isterim. Gerçekten çok güzel bir konu bu!!
Faruk Ahmet said,

Kasım 7, 2008 @ 02:49

soruma, daha genel, teorik, türleri tek tek exhaust etmeyen bir cevap duymak isterim.
Riemann,
Avrupa’da panik halinde “Darvinizm gidiyor, ne yapmalıyız?” toplantıları yapılır, evrim teorisi can çekişirken sizin sorduğunuz sorular çok abes kalıyor. Sorularınıza tatmin edici yanıt bulamamanız normal, çünkü evrim teorisi bu noktalarda tıkanıyor, lâl oluyor adeta; bu da doğal, çünkü fosillere bakıyoruz ki bildiğiniz tavuk milyonlarca yıl önce de aynı, kanatları bile aynı, tüyler müyler herbir şeyini tam yaratmış cenaballah (cc). Zaten evrim olsaydı madem maymundan geliyoruz niye hala maymunlar var, hepsinin insan olması lazımdı.

Duygu hanım, darvinizm bitince Batı da çökecek; kaçıp kendinizi kurtarın, enkazın altında kalmayın derim ben.
riemann said,

Kasım 7, 2008 @ 04:41

poe kanunu?
riemann said,

Kasım 7, 2008 @ 07:02

duygu, asıl ben müphem konuşmuşum. ‘neden bi tek semenderlerde var bu özellik?’ diye sorarken kastettiğim şey, olayı bu kadar kudretli boyutlara neden bir tek semender kardeşlerimiz taşımış, diğerleri neden çok ilgilenmemişler konseptle idi. Yoksa rejenerasyonun omurgalılar arasında semenderden başka bir heyvanda hiç bulunmadığı sonucu çıkmıyor yazından.

Abstract’ını yolladığın makale de bu soruma en azından olası cevaplar sunuyor gibi ama semenderde neden böyle bir özellik olduğundan çok diğer canlılarda neden olmadığından bahsediyor.. örneğin ‘It follows that the uneven distribution of regeneration must have been due to its extinction here and there’ gayet mantıklı geldi bana (eğer sayılan öncüller doğruysa) ama ‘as a pleiotropic epiphenomenon linked to more useful adaptations with which it was incompatible’ biraz spekülasyon gibi durmuyor mu? Bu lehte kanıtlar varsa eyvallah diyeceğim ama bu lehte kanıtlar olsa idi, bu sonuca o sayılan öncüllerden değil o kanıtlardan ‘follow’ edildiğini yazmasını beklerdim, şu haliyle biraz havada kalmış gibi değil mi epifenomen tezi? (tabi makalede açıkıyodur belki adamlar, görmek lazım)

ve her halükarda semenderin kudreti sorusu yine açıkta kalır (yahu koskoca biyoloji camiasında bu sürecin evrimsel hikayesini merak eden bi tek ben olamam heralde!) çünkü onlar içinde pleiotropi bir sorun idi, denizden karaya geçiş bir sorun idi, homeotermik metabolizmaya geçiş bir sorun idi, onlar nasıl üstesinden gelmişler bu sorunların? bi şekilde anatomilerine bağlı olacağı aşikar da, tam olarak nedir işte? (‘neyse ne kardeşim alala, ne önemi var’ demeyecek insanların arasında yazdığımı düşünmek istiyorum bu yazıyı)

bi önceki uzun mesajı yazıp yolladıktan sonra şu geldi aklıma (ki yeri gelmişken, niye edit özelliği yok bu mesajların. Ben mesela html kodlarını hayatımda henüz tek seferde düzgünce yazıp yollayabilmeyi başaramamış bir insanım (html’nin hotmail’den farklı bi şey olduğunu öğrenmem de çok eskilere dayanmaz), hep düzeltmem gerekiyo.. düzeltme şansı tanımayan sitelerde de tırsıp kullanmıyorum haliyle.. yok mu bunun bir çözümü?) bi kaç ay önce yayınlandığında çok sükse yaratan, e. coli bakterisinin laboratuvar koşullarında evrimle sitrat kullanmaya başlamalarına benzer bir durum gelmiş olabilir mi semenderlerin başına? Şöyle ki, bu e. coli’lar vahşi ortamlarda sitrat adlı maddeyi besin olarak kullanamıyolar normalde. deneyi yapan lenski kişisi, 12 farklı bakteri popülasyonunu tam 44.000 nesil boyunca (20 insan yılı) laboratuarında gözlemliyor ve 30 küsür bininci nesilde, sitrat kullanabilen bakterilerin evrildiğini görüyor! (hatta bu sitrat kullanama durumu e. coli’nin ayırt edici özelliklerinden en önemlisi.. taksonomistler eminim kafayı yemişlerdir bu gelişme karşısında.) her 500 nesilde tüm popülasyonlardan birer numune alıp dondurdukları için, evrimin tam olarak hangi aşamada gerçekleştiğini görme şansları oluyor. İncelemeler sonunda görüyolar ki, tek bir mutasyonun sitrat kullanımına yol açmasından ziyade, olaydan 20,000inci, 31,000inci ve 33,000inci nesillerde gerçekleşmiş 3 temel mutasyon sorumlu (ki bunu beklemeliyiz zaten, tek bir genetik değişiklikle elde edilebilecek bir özelliğe vahşi e. coli’nın da erişmesini beklerdik). Her üç mutasyonun kritik işlevleri var, 20.000inci nesilde görülen ilk mutasyon çeşitliliği arttırarak seçilimin olanaklarını fazlalaştırıyor, ikinci mutasyon popülasyonu sitrat metabolizasyonuna karşı daha açık fikirli hale getiriyor, sonuncusu da ince ayarı yapıyor, ve milyarlarca yıllık doğal evrimin erişemediği bir özelliğe laboratuvar koşullarında insanoğlu erişiyor. Bu deneyden alacağımız ders: bir özelliğin evrimi, organizmanın, evrimsel tarihi boyunca girdiği güzergahlara sıkı sıkıya bağlı.. evrilen bi özelliğin, beğenilmeyince geri-evrilip sıfırdan başlamak gibi bir şans olmadığı için girilen yolda, eldeki malzemeyi en optimum şekilde kullanmak gerekiyo..

Semender’in hikayesi de buna benzer bir şey mi acaba? Milyarlarca yıl önce, henüz daha genç, hayatının baharında bir türken, kaderi henüz daha geçirilmiş mutasyonların amansız dikteleriyle çizilmemişken girdikleri bi yol mu onları bu derece rejenerasyon bombastik kıldı? Omurgalı kuzenleriyle bu derece majör bir farkı başka nasıl açıklarız, bilemiyorum..

‘ulan ben semenderleri incelemiyorum bile, tavuk dirsee inceliyorum, nerden musallat oldun başıma!’ deme riskine karşı burada kesiyorum sokratik metot denemelerimi..
Ceren said,

Kasım 8, 2008 @ 23:33

Kurumun adı pek hoşmuş: DARPA. Lost’taki “Dharma”yı anımsattı :)) Orada da bir takım bilim adamları-kadınları özel bilimsel çalışmalar yapıyordu değil mi?
Düygü said,

Kasım 10, 2008 @ 04:23

‘as a pleiotropic epiphenomenon linked to more useful adaptations with which it was incompatible’ biraz spekülasyon gibi durmuyor mu? Bu lehte kanıtlar varsa eyvallah diyeceğim ama bu lehte kanıtlar olsa idi,

Aslında bu lehte kanıtlar var gibi, ama malesef ben pek bilgili değilim. Bizim hoca evrimsel ağacın daha yukarı dallarında olan omurgalılarda (fare, insan gibi) bağışıklık sisteminin daha karmaşıklaşmasının rejenerasyon özelliğinin kaybına sebep olmuş olabileceğini düşünüyor. (Yani bir özellik için diğerinden vazgeçilmesi durumu). Adamlar da makalede güzel açıklamış olabilirler ama tamamına ulaşamadım makalenin.

Bu konuyu tek merak eden elbette sen değilsin, ama ben soruların cevaplarını verecek kadar hakim değilim konuya sanırım :)

‘ulan ben semenderleri incelemiyorum bile, tavuk dirsee inceliyorum, nerden musallat oldun başıma!’ deme riskine karşı burada kesiyorum sokratik metot denemelerimi..

Tam olarak bunu demicem, ama pek yetersiz olduğum bir alandan yakaladın beni, utandım :) Yazdıklarını okurken aklıma şey geldi yannız. Bizim hocanın dediklerinden de yola çıkarak, semender belki bu özelliği kazanmadı da, diğerleri kaybettiler (daha iyi bağışıklık sistemi için mesela vs).
riemann said,

Kasım 10, 2008 @ 18:03

Estafırıldak, asıl ben bağlam içinde çok da önem arz etmeyen bi konuya takılı kalarak daha verimli gelişebilecek tartışmaların önüne geçmiş gibi hissettim kendimi, ama hagaden merak ediyorum semenderin bu özelliğinin evrimsel hikayesini.. sen bahsedene kadar bu derece radikal olduklarını bilmiyordum bu yeteneği icralarında, hatta doğa ananın oynadığı en şahane oyunlar listeme 4 numaradan giriş yaptı kendisi (1 numara bilinç, 2 numara haplodiploidy, 3 numara bioluminescence).. biraz araştırdım google’ı, her şeyi biyoloktan beklemedim, konuyla ilgili bi kaç makale buldum, okuycam anlıycam inşallah.. ama dediğin gibi tartışmalar, bu rejenerasyon olayı ilkel metazoanların çoğu tarafından biliniyordu da sonra bazıları tarafından unutuldu mu yoksa semenderler mi başlı başına çılgın ekseninde dönüyor anladığım kadarıyla, nası bi eksenmiş bakalım görücez..

madem bağlamın dışındayız, biraz daha takılalım burda.. son mesajında “evrimsel ağacın daha yukarılarında..” derken tam olarak nasıl bir yukarı yönlü hareketi kastetmiştin? ben hepimiz, tüm canlılar evrim ağacının birer dalında, birbirimizle aynı hizadayız sanıyodum, bahsettiğin(iz, sen ve hocan, zira scientific american makalesinde de var aynı tanım) gibi resmi bir aşağı-yukarılık kriteri var mı ortodoksinin parçası olmuş? şahsen ben kolunu bacağını, elini kolunu sallaya sallaya rejenere edebilen bi semender olsaydım ve bir homo sapiens bana alenen alçek deseydi çok alınırdım, banyosundan falan çıkardım, kahveden adam toplayıp..

nerde okumuştum unuttum ama darwin de sürekli kendisi için not düşermiş defterine ‘hayvanları aşağı ve yukarı diye nitelendirmekten vazgeç’ diye, acaba dedim bi kıstas mı belirlendi o tarihten bu tarihe?

biz üzerinize afiyet matematikçiler olarak bi şeyi tanımladığımızda adam gibi, şüpheye yer bırakmayacak, yorum farkına imkan tanımayacak şekilde ölümüne bir netlikte tanımladığımız için, kişi bir tanımı anlamakta zorlanıyorsa bu anlamama durumu asla tanımın içeriğinden değil her zaman kişinin muhtelif yetersiziklerinden kaynaklandığı için, yaptığımız bir tanım ile tam olarak belli bir şeyi ifade ettiğimiz ve ifade etmek istediğimizden farklı bir şeyi de asla ifade etmediğimiz için, semantikten ziyade sentaksın önemine mazhar olduğumuz için, doğa bilimcilerin kullandığı elastik terminolojiler kısa devreye uğramamıza sebep olabiliyor kimi zaman.. (gören de principia mathemetica’nın hazırlanışına katkıda bulundum sanacak.. yani yapan böyle yapar diyorum, ben direk sıraya yazıyorum tanımları sınavda) isyanım senin nezdinde tüm ‘yüksek seviyeli’ (ironi de yaparız biz matematikçiler evet) bilim adamlarına, hele ki fallacy/cümle oranını nasıl beceriyorlarsa her daim 1′in üstünde tutmayı başaran yurdum siyasal bilimcilerini dinlerken neler hissediyoruz, var sen düşün..
bora said,

Kasım 10, 2008 @ 22:58

Konu ilginçmiş ama ben kanada takıldım, malum piknik mevsimi.
Düygü said,

Kasım 11, 2008 @ 19:05

“evrimsel ağacın yukarıları” derken aslında ben de biraz kıllanmıştım, ama bizim bu ortamlarda habire “higher vertebrates” lafı geçiyor, onu nasıl çevirsem bilememiştim. “Higher vertebrate” derken memeliler filan kastediliyor, ama aslında bi yükseklikten ziyade daha yakın zamanda ortaya çıkmış türler olmaları bakımından böyle söyleniyor. Ağacın tepeleri aslında daha “üstün” değil de, daha “güncel” tür (not ancient). Malesef yanlış anlamalara yol açıyor ama hala biz densiz biyologlar tarafından bu tip ifadeler kullanılıyor, sırf daha düzgün terminolojinin eksikliğinden, ya da bizim özensizliğimizden ne bileyim :)

Siz, matematikçiler olarak, çogafedersiniz, doğada olmayan şeyleri poponuzdan icad edip tanımlıyorsunuz, işiniz o anlamda bize göre kolay. Biz olan bir şeyi anlamaya çalışırken kırık dökük terimler kullanıyoruz, on sene sonra bakmışsın yeni bulgular ışığında o terimler nanay olmuş, ama insanın ağzı alışınca kurtulamayabiliyor :) Kendimiz biliyoruz ya ne dediğimizi, bencillik ediyoruz az bilene karşı.

Ben elimden geleni yapıyorum, ama senin gibi cevval okura denk gelince zor tabi pörfekşın :) (Şikayetim yok tabiy ki!)
furkan said,

Kasım 19, 2008 @ 00:21

çok saçma bi siten var takılmışssın kendi halinde.şu kullandığın bilgisayarın parçaları milyonlarca hatta sonsuz yıl kalsa kendi kendine kalkıpta evrim saçmalığı gibi muhteşem yapılı bir bilgisayara dönüşmez bunu aklın tasdik ettiği halde nasıl olurda o sapık bir davada hak dava edipde kendini akıllı zannedersin.bu misalin deve kuşuna benzer .deve kuşu avcıyı görür kaçamaz kafasını kuma sokar avcı beni görmez diye ama koca vucudu dışardadır.senin misalin de buna benzemiş kainattaki nizamı düzeni gördüğün halde onu akılsız şuursuz tabiata vermen ve kalkıp birde bu konuda yayın yapman ne kadar akıldan uzak olduğunu haykırmakta.
A. Murat Eren said,

Kasım 19, 2008 @ 07:37

Yaşasın! Ben hep bunlardan bi tane görmek istemiştim! :)

Hatay’dan iyi çekiyor galiba saçma siteler. Zira ezberine bakılırsa bu gördüğün ilk saçma site değil ;)
Ceren said,

Kasım 19, 2008 @ 09:24

Yahu bu furkanvari elemanlar hiç dinden felan da anlamıyor. Allah sana akıl vermiş, düşün demiş, herşeyden önce “oku” demiş, peygamber “ilim çin’de dahi olsa bulunuz” demiş. Ama bu aptallar okuyup, akıllarını kullanıp, azıcık düşünmek, ilime-bilime noktanın trilyarda biri kadar katkı yapmaya çalışmak yerine, varolan beyinlerini ancak “devekuşu” kadar kullanma kapasitesinde tutmayı tercih ediyorlar, kafalarının kuma gömülü olduğunun bilincinde dahi değiller.
Ve malesef hiç bitmeyecekler. Çünkü öyle olmak çok kolay, çaba sarfetmeye gerek yok. “min. enerji max. entropi” yasası insanlar için de geçerli. Maddemizin doğasında var enerji harcamama dürtüsü.

Bu arada, aklıma gelen bir şey sormak istiyorum. Kesilen hatta kopan tırnağın yeniden oluşması da bir çeşit rejenerasyon sayılabilir mi?
riemann said,

Kasım 19, 2008 @ 19:13

hep söylerim, bir bilim sitesinde fikir beyan eden yaradılışçıların sayısı, mevzubahis sitenin kredibilitesiyle doğru orantılı olarak, alınan hit sayısının bir fonksiyonu olarak artar (aslında yalan söyledim, ilk defa şimdi söylüyorum bunu).. yani sitenizin çizdiği imajın, tutturduğu yolun doğru yol olduğunun teyitidir kanımca furkan bey gibilerinin laf salataları ve mantık hataları (ironik tabi, ama bu fütursuzluğun itici gücü olan dinlerin modern diyegeldiğimiz çağımızı domine etmesi kadar değil sanki), zira bu siteyi ziyaret eden her 1 furkan beye karşılık, fikirleri kıçından anlamayan, argümanları formel kurallar uyarınca takip edebilen, önyargılarının objektif gerçekleri çarpıtmasına izin vermeyen, fizik kurallarının rastgele tezahürlerinde anlamlı pattern’lar aramayan, rastgeleliğin üstesinden gelmiş üst seviyeli etkileşimleri görünce tanıyabilen, bir maymunun küçük küçük küçük …. küçük kuzeni olduğu gerçeğini varoluşsal bir hezeyan sebebi olarak değil figüranı olduğumuz kozmik bir dansın son tangosu olarak gördüğü için tüyleri heyecandan diken diken olabilen 10 tane nakruf bey olduğunu düşünüyorum, düşünmek istiyorum. hal böyleyken furkan beyin varlığını, temsil ettiği fikirlerin absürtlüğünü, bu fikirlerin nitelikli memetik havuzlarındaki ivmelenen azalışını ve tabi en temelinde kanıtların götürdüğü yönde şekillenen bir kozmik perspektifimiz olduğu gerçeğini (öyle isek) bi kutlama vesilesi olarak görmek gerektiğini sanıyorum. bu bakımdan, tüm bunlara katkılarından dolayı furkan beye en içten teşekkürlerimi sunuyorum ve temsil ettiği fikirlerin soyunun tükendiği gün gelip çattığı zaman kendisini ve yoldaşlarını nostaljiyle anmalarını na buradan küçük küçük küçük … küçük torunlarıma salık veriyorum..

o değil de o zamana kadar da rejenerasyonun sırlarına vakıf olamazsanız ani bi kararla mormon olma hakkımı saklı tutuyorum he.. bakın izleyici sorusu gelmiş yukarıda, kaynamasın arada..
Düygü said,

Kasım 19, 2008 @ 19:26

Önceleri ben de kızıyordum böyle insanlara. Hatta bu yoruma ilk tepkim elimde olmadan kızmak oldu, sonra kendime şunları hatırlattım: böyle insanlara (yani bireylere) kızmanın bir anlamı yok, hatta kızmanın düpedüz haksızlık olduğunu düşünüyorum artık. İllaha ki birilerine kızacaksak onları kendi çıkarları için yalan yanlış bilgilendiren beyin yıkamacılara (Zödnan Höca), ya da onlar ulu orta yanlış bilgilendirilirken yıllarca poposunu kaldırıp bir şey yapmamış akademisyenlere, bilgi ve koltuk sahiplerine kızabiliriz.

Ya da kimseye kızmamaya çalışır Evrim Çalışkanı oluruz :) Benim bu konuya dair hissiyatım birleştirici olmak, “onlar ve biz” olmamak.

Bu bakımdan aslında Meren’in ve Ceren’in yorumlarını görünce biraz cız etti içim, Furkan’ın geri gelip bu yazılanları okuduğunda bizim burada bir “taraf” olduğumuzu hissedeceğinden şüphem yok (oysa ki öyle olmamasını dilerdim). Furkan -yazdığı yorumdan anlaşıldığı üzere- çok öyargılı bir insan olduğu için, Meren’in onu “zaten ne kadar uğraşsan da seni anlamak istemeyecek biri” diye değerlendireceğini de tahmin ediyorum. :) Ama ben bir denemeyi isterdim doğrusu.

Bu arada, aklıma gelen bir şey sormak istiyorum. Kesilen hatta kopan tırnağın yeniden oluşması da bir çeşit rejenerasyon sayılabilir mi?

Bu aslında zor bir soru, ve rejenerasyonu nasıl tanımladığımıza göre değişiyor. Zira iki çeşit rejenerasyon var, birisi epimorfik rejenerasyon (semenderin kolunun yeniden uzaması gibi koskoca bir organın yeniden yapılması) diğeri de doku rejenerasyonu (vücudumuzdaki kimi dokuların kendilerini yaralanma sonucu tamir edebilmeleri vs gibi). Bence tırnak uzaması hiçbir şekilde rejenerasyon sayılamaz (saç belki doku rejenerasyonu sayılabilir). Bunun aklıma gelen iki sebebi şöyle: Bu yapılar, tırnak yatağı ve saç kökünde canlı yapılar olsalar da, ortaya çıkan (uzayan) yapı – yani saç ve tırnak – keratinden oluşan cansız yapılar. (oysa ki kolun uzaması ya da dokunun rejenerasyonunda son ürün yine canlı). Üstelik ikisinin üretim şekli de çok farklı. Tırnağı ayrıntılı bilmiyorum ama, saçlar, saç kökünde depolanmış bulunan (ve kendini sürekli yenileyen) kök hücrelerin değişime uğraması ile üretiliyor. Semender kolu koptuğunda ise “blastema” adı verilen bir yapı oluşuyor kopan bölgede. Bütün rejerasyon işini o düzenliyor. Yani oldukça farklı görünen “mekanizmalar” söz konusu.
A. Murat Eren said,

Kasım 19, 2008 @ 21:53

Yahu ben sevincimi dile getirdim, daha ne yazmalıydım ki kızgın filan olmadığım belli olaydı :(

Bu şey gibi, bir doğa gözlemcisinin gene bir gün gözlem yapmak amacı ile gittiği ormanda, yaşadığı çevrede benzerine çok nadiren rastlanılan bir heyvanın, bir ağacın arkasından usulca, tüm samimiyeti ve eblehliği ile belirmesi karşısında yaşadığı heyecan gibi. Ne heyvanın gözlemciden korkmasına, ne gözlemcinin heyvana kızmasına gerek var :)

Ya da diğer bir bakış açısı ile sürekli takıldığı ormanda bir gözlemci görmüş olmanın heyecanını yaşayan bir heyvan tepkisine de benzetilebilir. Heyvan olmaktan gocunulması ihtimaline karşı değişken değiştirme yapayım dedim.
farukahmet said,

Kasım 22, 2008 @ 05:06

Ya o değil de, devekuşlarının kafalarını kuma gömdüğü yalanını kim uydurmuş onu çok merak ediyorum. Gidin başka metafor bulun kardeşim artık, yok öyle bir şey.
A. Murat Eren said,

Kasım 23, 2008 @ 06:56

Bu metaforlar şöyle ortaya çıkıyor efendim, bir gün bir tartışma esnasında bir mevzuyu ağız tadı ile bağlamaya ramak kalmış oluyor. Yaklaşan sonun herkes farkında, tartışmada bir gerginlik, bir tedirginlik havası söz konusu. Bir taraf galibiyeti vakur bir şekilde karşılamaya hazırlanırken diğer taraf yenilgiyi yıkılmadan göğüslemek arzusu içerisinde. Müstakbel galip bütün argümanları o kadar güzel inşa etmiş oluyor ki zaten sesi soluğu kesilmiş hasımı göz yaşlarına boğmak içün onun bile inkâr edemeyeceği son bir ispat, hasıma indirilecek son bir darbe ihtiyacı hasıl oluyor üzerinize afiyet. Doğanın ve özlü sözlerin bizi yalnız bıraktığı durumlarda ise birisi uyduruveriyor bir şey, sayesinde öyle bir boşluk doluyor ki alışkanlık halini alıp nesilden nesile kullanılıyor. Kimse sorgulamıyor.

Mesela, deve kuşundan matrak olmasın, benim bir zaman fark ettiğim “Prof. Dr. Arthur Macomb” örneği vardır. Kendisine ve kendisini icat edenlere ulaşmamızı sağlamak sureti ile hayatımıza neş-e katan Google’a gitsin teşekkürler:

http://www.google.com/search?q=prof+%22arthur+macomb%22

Şimdi gidip bu arkadaşlara “başka bir adam bulun, yok Arthur Macomb diye birisi, uydurmuş sizin hoca zamanında, uydurmakla kalmamış sizleri de literatür araması yapmaktan aciz, Internet filan kullanabilirlikten uzak dallamalar yerine koymuş, üzgünüz” demek doğru olur mu? Olmaz.

Bence insanoğlu dünyanın en komikçi canlısı. Bence öyle de kalmalı. Deve kuşu bizi biz yapan bir değerdir. Arthur Macomb bizi biz yapan bir değerdir. Kaybedilmemelidirler.

Uzaya gittiğim bir sefer dünyanın girişine “Dünya’ya hoş gelmek üzeresiniz. Biraz izlerseniz olan biten tüm saçmalığın kendi içerisinde bir ahengi olduğunu görecek olduğunuzdan dolayı lütfen aceleci davranıp bizi yola getirmeye çalışmayınız. Anlayışınız için teşekkürler” tabelası koyacağım.
furkan said,

Kasım 27, 2008 @ 15:59

bre ateist kafalı düzmece muratlar erenler ….ve bu yolda akıllı olduğunu sanıpta akılsız bir davada araya yabancı iki üç kelime sıkıştırıp konu üzerinde hakim olduğunu sanıp( aklı sıra) kur an ın dava ettiği bir hakikate dil uzatmaya çalışna bedbaht ruhlu insanlar.sen ellerindeki nizamı düzeni göremeyecek kadar akıldan uzaklaşmış at gözlüğü misali dar çerçeveden bakan bir zavallısın.interneti aklınlamı yoksa tesadüfi bir şekilde mi kullanıyosun.sen küçük bir meselede aklınla hareket ediyoken kaldıki senin küçük aklının alamayacağı büyüklükteki icraatları evrim hurafeleri ile savunman senin ne kadar akıldan uzak olduğunu haykırmakta.yaşasın sinek bu sene gergedan oldu .canı sıkılmış,,.yada balinalar bu sene karada yaşayan canlı doğurmuş…gibi saçmalıkları aklınız sıra anadolu topraklarına empoze edip işte yaptık.çürüttük..gibi batıl fikirlerle çıkmışssınız bir divane yola.bilim adı altında. haksızlığa hak dava etmek hakka karşı haksızlık olduğundan sizin bu palavralarınızla sizi bu dar alanda bırakıp sizlere beş para ehemmiyet vermiyorum.siz değil, bütün avrupa filozofları toplansa şu kainattaki nizamı düzeni güneş sistemini dünyanın günlük hareketini insanın dış siması iç organları kalbi aklı duyguları vs.daha binlerce örnek var burda bilim adı altında evrim oldu şeklinde savunamaz..bunları akılsız şuursuz sebeplermi yoksa bir sanatkarmı yaptı sizden soruyorum.veya sultan ahmet veya ayasofya bir mimar tarafındanmı yoksa yağmur yağması şimşek çakması veya evrim işte canım… gibi bir yanılgılar yumağı ilemi açıklarsınız.son sözüm burda konuşan yanlız hakikattir.sizler gibi düzmeceler hep vardı ama ne yazıkki sizin soyunuz taru mar oldu.sizleri risalei nur okumaya davet ediyorum.
Düygü said,

Kasım 27, 2008 @ 17:52

Bu blogun okurlarından rica ediyorum lütfen Furkan Bey’e cevap vermesinler. Bu anlamsız tartışmanın burada da vücut bulmasından çok rahatsız olacağım. Özellikle ben bu konuda birleştirici bir tavır takınmak istiyorken kimsenin gelip bir başkası ile itiş kakış içerisine girmemesini temenni ediyorum.

Furkan Bey, size gelince, çok önyargılı, öfkeli ve kabasınız. Buraya gelip düzgün bir diyalog içine girmeye çalışmadan ardı ardına hakaretler sıralayarak insanlara bir şey anlatabilmeniz mümkün değil. Bu şekilde nereye varmaya çalıştığınızı anlayamadım.

Şimdiye kadar evrim kuramı hakkında bilgi edindiğiniz kaynaklar sizi kendi çıkarları için kandırıyor ve yanlış bilgilendiriyor. Evrim kuramını kabul etmenin İslam dinine ters düşen bir yanı yok, Dünya üzerinde bir sürü inançlı bilim insanı da var. Eğer şurada insan gibi düzgün bir diyalog içine girebilecek olsaydınız belki bu konuda iki kelam konuşurduk, ve belki o zaman yazdıklarınızı dikkate alabilirdim, fakat bundan sonra sizden de buraya bir yorum girmemenizi rica ediyorum. Size, yorumlarınız hakaret içermediği sürece, engel olacak değilim, ama hakaret içerikli yorumlarınızı sileceğim.
filiz said,

Kasım 29, 2008 @ 02:39

Öncelikle okuduğum en harika bloglardan biri olduğunu belirtmeden geçemeyeceğim.Bu samimiyet,dile hakimiyet,çeşitlilik..Sahiden çok sevdim..

Ve ne efendice bir cevaptır o saldırgan tutuma karşı yazdığınız. yaklaşık 2 saattir bloğunuzu okuduktan,aramızda bazı ortak noktalar bulduktan sonra daha da bi sevindim.Beni yanıltmadınız.Sevgilerimle
Düygü said,

Kasım 29, 2008 @ 05:56

Filiz, çok teşekkür ederim güzel sözlerinize.
furkan said,

Kasım 30, 2008 @ 19:09

size: ben değil kur an 1500 senedir savaş açmış ve üç büyük dinin semavi kanunları ve ona inanan milyarlar insanlar ve bu uğurda kendi öz canını veren milyonlar ecdadımız yanlız ve yanlız kainatın tek bir elden çıktığı hakikati için canlarını mallarını vermişler.ben ve benim gibi düşünen milyonlar insanlar var.sizleri bu bayram günü her hangi bir cami önüne bekliyorum.o kalabalık yığına gelin kendi fikirlerinizi empoze edin.sizlere hiç ehemmiyet vermezler.çünkü bir sanat eseri sanatkarsız ,bir resim ressamsız bir yazı nakkaşsız olmaz olamaz.bu hakikatler anadolu semalarında yankılanıyo.sizler bir olayı dava ederken korkutma pıstırma kaba olmuyoda benim benimsediğim bir hakikati savunmammı size dokundu.doğru yanlız bir olur sana göre bana göre doğru olmaz sen ikinci bir düşme kanunu var diye dava edersen acaba ne olurdu halin..ayrıca sizler eğer allahı unutup kainatı evrim adı altında allayıp pullarsanız size nice furkanlar saidler hamzalar cevap vermekte gecikmeyecektir.hatta kendi ellerinizdeki beyninizdeki milimetrik hesaplar sonucu çalışan akılsız şuursuz zerreler cevap verecektir.şimdi sizler kalkın bir zerreye diyinki seni ben yaptım yada sen kendi kendine oldun yada evrim geçirdin.o size kendi dili ile şöyle cevap verecektir.benim içimdeki maddeleri gezdiğim organları girdiğim damarlardaki taşıdığım kan miktarını bilecek bir ilim güç kuvvet sende varsa beni sen yaptım de yada evrim oldun de.yada tek bir şey kalıyo oda onları sonsuz ilim ve şuur ve güç sahibi bir sanatkarın yapması ve onu vucud organlarında bir ilim dahilinde vazifedar etmesidir…benim kaynağım kur an hakikatleri ve ama sizinki acaba hangi kanuna dayanıyoda kalkıp bana ahkam kesiyosun.arkası gelecek
Düygü said,

Kasım 30, 2008 @ 22:31

Furkan Bey,
Burada benim yazmış olduğum hangi cümlede size karşı bir hakaret ya da inançlarınıza ilişkin bir yalanlama var, somut bir örnek gösterebilir misiniz?

Buraya gelip başkalarının düşüncelerine -garip bir takım önyargılarla- hakaret eden, insanlara üstü kapalı şekilde “aptal” diyen sizsiniz. Yukarıda yazdığınız yorumlarda şöyle ifadeler var:

“kendini akıllı zannedersin” – üstü kapalı şekilde “aptal” diyorsunuz.
“düzmece” – çok kaba bir ifade.
“interneti aklınlamı yoksa tesadüfi bir şekilde mi kullanıyosun” – bunu söylediğiniz insan bilgisayar mühendisi.
“senin küçük aklının alamayacağı” – yine üstü kapalı “aptal” demenin bir biçimi.

Bunu neden yaptığınızı açıklamanızı rica ediyorum lütfen.

Size söylediğim gibi, evrim kuramını anlamak imanlı bir müslüman olmaya engel değil. Neden hala öfkeli yorumlar giriyorsunuz? Size bu düşünceleri aşılayanların dinden imandan başka dertleri var. Sizin inancınız ortaya yeni çıkan her yeni bilimsel kuramla sarsılacak kadar güçsüzse, çareyi burada insanlara öfkenizi akıtarak değil, kendi içinize dönerek aramanızı tavsiye ederim. Çünkü, dediğim gibi evrim kuramını kabul edip aynı zamanda dini inancı tam olan bir sürü insan var bu dünya üzerinde.
furkan said,

Aralık 3, 2008 @ 01:07

be kardeşim.senin atıflarının altında elli tane art niyetli cümleler var.sen burda bir şey savunuyosan da bana göre ön yargılı olan kaba konuşan sen ve senin gibi yorum yapan insanlar.oku senin yol arkadaşlarının bana yazdıklarını size yazdıklarım az bile bu yapılanlar karşısında.bir mazlumun boğazına ehli dalalet ayağını basıp ona itaat etmesini istemiş ama o ilmin izzeti ile onun hayasız yüzüne tükürmüş.burda ben ilmi muhafaza ediyorum.hangi islam alimi yada bir müslüman acaba sizin düşüncelerinize katıldıda kalkıp burda yok var siz yanlışsınız gibi sözlerde bulunuyosun.sizin yapmaya çalıştığınız şeyler bilim adı altında iman ve kur an hakikatlerine set çekmek. canlılar üzerinde işleyen o kusursuz kalem kudretini akılsız şuursuz canlılara verip allahı unutturmak.neden şu şunu yaptı bu bunu tamamladı diyosunuzda onu bir sanatkar yapmadı demiyosunuz..ayrıca burda bana atıfda bulunan yoldaşlarının yorumlarını oku benim ne için burda zaman öldürdüğümü anlarsın.son sözüm güneş üflemekle sönmez.gündüz ortasında gözünü kapayan yanlız kendine gece yapar.siz kur an güneşinde gözlerini kapatan kendine gece yapanlarsınız.
Düygü said,

Aralık 3, 2008 @ 17:59

Furkan Bey,

“Size ya da inançlarınıza karşı hakaret içeren bir cümlem var mı?” soruma somut bir örnek bile veremiyorsunuz. “Yol arkadaşım” diye bahsettiğiniz insanların yazdıkları üzerinden beni suçluyorsunuz.

Yazdıklarımda hiçbir art niyet yok. Söylediğim şey çok basit: Evrim kuramını anlamak, öğrenmek imanlı bir müslüman (ya da hıristiyan) olmaya engel değildir diyorum.

Size somut bir örnek vereyim. Müslüman bilimci Prof. Dr. Faruk El-Baz’ın evrim kuramı hakkında söyledikleri:

Yeni Şafak Gazetesi’nin Röportajı

Keza daha geçtiğimiz haftalarda İngiliz Kilisesi Darwin’den özür dilediğini açıkladı (aşağıdaki kaynak İngilizce’dir, eğer İngilizce bilmiyorsanız güvendiğiniz birine bu yazıda ne söyledindiğini sorun, ben sizin için Türkçe’ye çevirmekten gocunmazdım ama bana güvenmeyeceğinizi ve beni yalan çeviri yapmakla suçlayacağınızı sanıyorum):

Guardian Gazetesi haberi

Son bir örnek olarak, evrimsel biyoloji profesörü olan ABD’li bilim insanı Joan Roughgarden aynı zamanla inançlı bir Hıristiyandır. Evrim ve Hıristiyan İnancı isimli kitabında bunun nasıl olabildiğini anlatır. Kitapla ilgili bilgi bu adreste var (kitap İngilizce, Türkçe çevirisi malesef yok).
furkan said,

Aralık 4, 2008 @ 00:21

Furkan Bey, size gelince, çok önyargılı, öfkeli ve kabasınız. Buraya gelip düzgün bir diyalog içine girmeye çalışmadan ardı ardına hakaretler sıralayarak insanlara bir şey anlatabilmeniz mümkün değil. Bu şekilde nereye varmaya çalıştığınızı anlayamadım.
BU BLgun okurlarından rica ediyorum lütfen Furkan Bey’e cevap vermesinler
Önceleri ben de kızıyordum böyle insanlara. Hatta bu yoruma ilk tepkim elimde olmadan kızmak oldu, sonra kendime şunları hatırlattım: böyle insanlara (yani bireylere) kızmanın bir anlamı yok, hatta kızmanın düpedüz haksızlık olduğunu düşünüyorum artık. İllaha ki birilerine kızacaksak onları kendi çıkarları için yalan yanlış bilgilendiren beyin yıkamacılara (Zödnan Höca), ya da onlar ulu orta yanlış bilgilendirilirken yıllarca poposunu kaldırıp bir şey yapmamış akademisyenlere, bilgi ve koltuk sahiplerine kızabiliriz
Aslında bu lehte kanıtlar var gibi, ama malesef ben pek bilgili değilim. Bizim hoca evrimsel ağacın daha yukarı dallarında olan omurgalılarda (fare, insan gibi) bağışıklık sisteminin daha karmaşıklaşmasının rejenerasyon özelliğinin kaybına sebep olmuş olabileceğini düşünüyor. (Yani bir özellik için diğerinden vazgeçilmesi durumu). Adamlar da makalede güzel açıklamış olabilirler ama tamamına ulaşamadım makalenin…..SEN BU SATIRLARDA BANA DÜŞÜNCEME ATIFLARDA BULUNDUN KENDİ DÜŞÜNCELERİNİ SAVUNDUN.BENDE SANA KENDİ İNANCIMI SAVUNDUM.RESMEN ALLAHI UNUTTURUYO SÖZLERİN YAZILARIN.YAZILARININ ALTINDA YATAN MANA EVRİMLEŞME YE KAPI AÇMAK BENDE SANA İSPAT EDİYORUMKİ EVRİM DİYE BİR ŞEY YOKTUR.delilmi istersin risale i nur ları al oku.YİRMİ ÜÇÜNCÜ LEMA YAZ GOOGLEDEN VE OKU.VE BANA JKUR AN DAN BİR AYET GÖSTER EVRİM OLDU ALLAH SÜMME HAŞA KARIŞMADI DİYE.KAİNATI BU KADAR SİSTEMLER DAHİLİNDE YAZAN KALEMİ KUDRET HİÇ KENDİSİNİ BU KAİANATTAN GİZLERMİ.OLUP BİTENLERİN ARKASINDA NEDEN ALLAHI GÖRMÜYOSUNUZ.İŞTE BENİM SİZE KARŞI DAVA ETMEYE ÇALIŞTIĞIM BUDUR.KAİANNATTA AKILSIZ ŞUURSUZ HİÇ BİR ŞEY BİR SİSTEM DAHİLİNDE ÇALIŞAMAZ.BİR MAKİNE DÜŞÜNÜN.MİLYONLARCA PARÇASI OLSA HEPSİ BİR KENARDA OLSA SİZLER SONSUZ YILLAR BEKLESENİZ ONLAR KALKIPTA BİR MAKİNE OLAMAZ.AKIL DAHİLİNDE BİR SANATKAR LAZIMKİ O MAKİNE OLSUN.EVRİM ALDATMACASI ALLAHI UNUTUP TESADÜFLERE KAPI AÇMAKTIR.DÜNYANIN EN GELİŞMİŞ LABAROTUVARLARINDA BİLE SAYISIZ KEZ ÇALIŞMALAR NETİCESİNDE DENEYLER YAPILMAKTA BUNLARI SİZDE GÖRDÜĞÜNÜZ HALDE KUSURSUZ DİZAYN EDİLEN İNSAN VUCUDUNU NASIL OLURDA ALLAHTAN UZAK GÖRÜP KENDİ KENDİNE OLUP BİTTİYE GETİRİYOSUNUZ.EVRİM TEORsnde1PROTEİNİN TESADÜFEN OLDUĞUNU İDDİA ETMEKTEDİRaNCAK OLASILIK HESAPLARI BUNUN İMKANSIZ OLDUĞUNU GÖSTERMEKTEDİR.ÖRNEĞİN 500 AMİNO ASİTTEN OLUŞAN BİR PROTEİNİN amino asit diziliminin tesadüfendoru çıkması,10’950de1ihtimaldir.10’950 demek, 1 rakamının yanına 950 tane sıfır gelmesiyle oluşan akıl almaz bir sayı demektir. Oysa matematikte10’50 de 1′den daha düşük ihtimaller pratik olarak “sıfır ihtimal” kabul edilirler. .Kısacası tek bir protein bile tesadüfen oluşamaz. Bu gerçek kimi zaman evrimciler tarafından da itiraf edilir. Örneğin Harold Blum adlı ünlü bir evrimci bilim adamı, “bilinen en küçük proteinlerin bile rastlantısal olarak meydana gelmesi, tümüyle imkansız gözükmektedir” demektedir.

Peki tüm bunlar ne anlama gelir? Kimya profesörü Perry Reeves ise bu soruya şöyle bir cevap verir:

Bir insan, amino asitlerin rastlantısal olarak birleşiminden ne kadar fazla muhtemel yapı oluşabileceğini düşündüğünde, hayatın gerçekten de bu şekilde ortaya çıktığını düşünmenin akla aykırı geldiğini görür. Böyle bir işin gerçekleşmesinde bir Büyük İnşa Edici’nin var olduğunu kabul etmek, akla çok daha uygundur…maksadımız iman hakikatleridir.
Düygü said,

Aralık 4, 2008 @ 19:08

Furkan Bey,

“OLUP BİTENLERİN ARKASINDA NEDEN ALLAHI GÖRMÜYOSUNUZ.İŞTE BENİM SİZE KARŞI DAVA ETMEYE ÇALIŞTIĞIM BUDUR.” demişsiniz.

Ben de size en başından beri diyorum ki, Evrim Kuramı olup bitenlerin arkasında Allah’ın olmadığını iddia etmiyor. Bunu “siz” veya başkaları böyle yorumluyorsunuz.

Size en başından beri örnekleri ile, evrimi kabul eden ama aynı zamanda imanlı, müslümanlar var diyorum. Kilise Darwin’den özür dilemiş diyorum.

Burada biyoloji alanında doktora yapan bir arkadaşım geçenlerde bana “biyoloji ve evrim kuramı hakkında daha çok bilgi edindikçe Allah’a daha da hayranlıkla bağlanıyorum” dedi mesela.

Lütfen bana evrimin olmadığını kanıtlamaya çalışmayın. Ben size Allah’ın olmadığını kanıtlamaya çalışmıyorum. Bilimsel bilginin ve dini inancın bir arada BARIŞ içinde var olabileceğini söylemeye çalışıyorum. Söylediklerimde hiçbir art niyet yok. Siz de canlılar dünyasının karmaşık güzelliğini, evrim kuramını vesaireyi öğrenip Allah’a olan hayranlığınızı bunlarla besleyebilirsiniz.

KAVGA etmeden, birbirimizin düşüncesini yalanlamaya çalışmadan var olabiliriz. Bunu görmekten neden bu kadar çekiniyorsunuz anlayamıyorum.
Mantık hataları: top 10 « no dry light said,

Aralık 30, 2008 @ 17:16

[...] O MAKİNE OLSUN.EVRİM ALDATMACASI ALLAHI UNUTUP TESADÜFLERE KAPI AÇMAKTIR.”[sic] (kardeş site biyolokum.com’a yorum yazan ‘furkan’ isimli bir [...]
Kıvanç Erten said,

Ocak 19, 2009 @ 17:23

Furkan Bey, Richard Dawkins, Kör Saatçi kitabında, “Küçük Değişimlerin Birikmesi” adlı III. Bölüme şöyle başlıyor;

“Canlıların rastlantı eseri ortaya çıkamayacak kadar olasılık dışı ve güzel ‘tasarlanmış ’olduğunu gördük. Öyleyse, nasıl var oldular? Yanıt-ki Darwin’in yanıtıdır bu şöyle: Canlılar, basit başlangıçların, rastlantı eseri hayat kazanabilecek kadar basit ilkel varlıkların, kerte kerte, adım adım dönüşümüyle ortaya çıktı. Bu yavaş evrim sürecindeki her değişim, kendinden bir öncekine kıyasla, rastlantı eseri oluşabilecek kadar yalındı. Ancak, en son ürünün karmaşıklığını başlangıç noktasıyla kıyaslayarak düşünürseniz, bu birbirine eklenen adımlar dizisinin tümü bir rastlantı süreci olmaktan çıkar. Bu birikimli süreci yönlendiren etken hayatta kalabilme çabasıdır ve gelişigüzel değildir. Bu bölümün amacı da, birikimli seçilimin gelişigüzel olmayan, temel bir süreç olarak gücünü gösterebilmektir.

Çakıl taşlarıyla dolu bir kumsalda yürüdüğünüzde, çakılların gelişi güzel dağılmadığını fark edersiniz. Küçük çakıllar kumsal boyunca diğerlerinden ayrı bir kuşak oluşturmuştur; büyük çakıllar da ayrı kuşaklar halinde dizilmişlerdir. Çakıl taşları sıralanmış, düzenlenmiş ve seçilmişlerdir. Kıyıya yakın yaşayan bir kabile yeryüzündeki düzene ilişkin bu kanıtlara bakıp meraklanabilir ve bunu açıkayacak bir söylence uydurabilir; belki de, tertipli bir zihne ve düzen duygusuna sahip gökyüzündeki Büyük Ruh’tur taşları böyle sıralayan… Bu batıl inanç karşısında alaycı bir gülümsemeyle, çakılları sıralayanın amaçsız fiziksel kuvvetler, yani dalgaların etkisi olduğu yanıtını verebiliriz. Dalgaların amacı, tertipli bir zihin yoktur; aslında zihinleri yoktur. Dalgalar yanlızca çakılları bir oraya, bir buraya sürüklerler. Bu işleme büyük ve küçük çakıllar ayrı ayrı tepkiler verir ve kumsalın farklı bölgelerinde toplanırlar. Düzensizlikten bir miktar düzen ortaya çıkmış ve bu hiçbir zihin tarafından tasarlanmamıştır.”

Eğer evrimin gerçekte ne olduğunu biraz olsun anlamak istiyorsanız bu kitabı okumanızı şiddetle tavsiye ediyorum. Okuduktan sonra, hala istekli olursanız, daha bilimsel bir şekilde kendi görüşlerinizi savunmaya devam edebilirsiniz.
“Kriptografi Gördüm”, Wunjo… » Bir süreliğine evde olmayabiliriz (ama siz kapıyı yine de çalın…) said,

Nisan 18, 2009 @ 14:48

[...] gündür, labımızda çalışan hemen herkesle birlikte San Antonio’da bir toplantıdaydık. Daha önce bahsettiğim gibi bizim labda kopan kolları, parmakları nasıl uzatabiliriz sorusuna cevap arıyoruz. Yapılan [...]
Hasan Surname said,

Haziran 25, 2009 @ 01:54

Duygu Hanım; siteye ilk gelişim ve bu çalışmanız için sizi kutluyorum.

Tartışma çok güzel gidiyordu fakat fikirsel yazışmalar nedeniyle okunmaz hale geldi, konuya dönmek istiyorum.

Özetle, sormak/dikkati çekmek istediğim iki nokta var;

1- Kopan organla birlikte sinirler de kopuyor. Büyük ölçekte sinir hücresinin yenilenmesini sağlayan doku davranışı çözülebildi mi?

2- El gibi, kuyruğa oranla karmaşık bir organın oluşması için;
üst düzeyde: sinir sisteminin embriyonik indüksiyon sırasında yönetici şekilde davranması
ve alt düzeyde: parmak şeklinin oluşması için bazı bölgelerdeki hücrelerin lizise uğraması
gibi davranışların görüldüğünü biliyoruz. Bunlar erişkin bir canlıda tekrar nasıl ortaya çıkmaktadır?
Kesilen eli tekrar oluşturma sürecinde canlı beyninin ilkel bölgelerinde bir emir süreci mi başlamaktadır?

Bunlar şu anda merak uyandıran noktalardır.
B. Duygu Ozpolat said,

Haziran 25, 2009 @ 12:57

Hasan Bey merhaba,

Öncelikle bu güzel sorular için teşekkür ederim. Hemen cevaplayayım:

İlk olarak, semender gibi rejenerasyon yeteneğine sahip canlılarda kolu (ya da bacağı) herhangi bir yerinden kestiğiniz zaman yeniden uzama gerçekleşiyor (yani sadece kuyruk değil). Bu yüzden, rejenerasyon yeteneğinin organın karmaşık yapısı ile çok da ilgisi yok. Yani semederin elleri/ayakları da normal bir şekilde yeniden oluşuyor.

Bu yeniden uzama olayı ise ana hatları ile şöyle gerçekleşiyor: Kopan kolun bıraktığı açık yara hızla iyileşiyor. Daha sonra kolun bu açık ucunda “blastema” adı verilen ve kök hücre özelliğinde hücrelerin o bölgeyere göçerek oluşturduğu bir yapı ortaya çıkıyor. Bu yapı, embriyonun gelişiminde kol ve bacaklar nasıl ki küçücük kol/bacak tomurcuklarından gelişiyorsa, aynı o tomurcuk gibi hareket ediyor ve kopmuş kısmı yeniden yapıyor. Bu aslında biraz da ikinci sorunuzun cevabı. Fakat burada beynin emir vermesinin değil, sinirlerin orada lokal olarak bazı sinyal patikalarını etkinleştirmesinin rol oynadığı düşünülüyor. Zira, blastema adını verdiğimiz yapı oluşurken, yine kolun kopmasından sonra kalan kısmındaki sinirler blastemaya doğru uzuyorlar. Bu sinirlerin uzamasının engellendiği deneyler yapılmış ve normalde rejenere olabilen kolların, sinirlerin yokluğunda uzayamadıkları görülmüş (1). (Yani rejenerasyon yeteneği sinirler blastemaya uzamazsa yok oluyor).

Özetle, Meksika semenderinden gözlenen kol/bacak rejenerasyonu yeteneği, sinirlere ihtiyaç duyuyor ve yeni kol/bacak uzarken aynen embriyodaki gelişimde izlenen yol izleniyor.

Umarım sorunuza cevap verebilmişimdir. Başka sorunuz olursa yazmaktan çekinmeyin.

Selamlar,

Duygu

(1) Bu konuda daha fazla bilgi edinmek isterseniz David Gardiner’ın ekibi tarafından yayınlanan şu makaleye göz atabilirsiniz: “Nerve dependency of regeneration: the role of Distal-less and FGF signaling in amphibian limb regeneration.”
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Haziran 26, 2009 @ 12:14

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Cagri Emer said,

Haziran 28, 2009 @ 05:19

Medyada da değinilmiş bu konuya. Görünce şaşırdığımı itiraf etmeliyim.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31414946/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/
korhan said,

Haziran 29, 2009 @ 15:30

selam duygu merak ettim alt çenesini çıkarsanız yeniden oluşuyormu oda ??
Duygu said,

Haziran 29, 2009 @ 15:37

Merhaba,

Özellikle çene kemiğini deneyenler bildiğim kadarıyla olmadı. Fakat literatürde “axolotl can regenerate most body parts” diyor. Yani “semender vücudunun çoğu bölgesini rejenere edebilir”. Aşağıda adresini verdiğim kaynağa göre kalp, böbrek, sinir sistemi, solungaç, kollar ve bacaklar, kuyruk gibi organ ve dokuları rejenere edebiliyormuş. Çene de kemik, kas, deri gibi dokulardan oluştuğu için, bana kalırsa onu da rejenere edememesi için bir sebep göremiyorum. (Yine de denemeye değer.)

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4301/axolotlhealth.htm
ali said,

Ekim 7, 2009 @ 14:55

duygu hanım bu konu çok dikkatimi çekti.. ancak yabancı dil yetersizliğinden dolayı makaleleri ya çeviremiyor yada ulaşamıyorum..
rejenerasyon hakkındaki kaynaklarınızı bana ulaştırabilirmisiniz acaba..
genç bir biyoloji öğrencisine yardımcı olmak için..
ali said,

Ekim 7, 2009 @ 14:56

smallali@mynet.com adresine verirseniz sevinirm duygu hanım..
Düygü said,

Ekim 7, 2009 @ 16:08

Ali Bey merhaba,

İlgilendiğinize sevindim fakat elimde bu konuda hiç Türkçe kaynak yok malesef. Genç bir biyoloji öğrencisine tavsiyem İngilizcesini elinden geldiğince geliştirmesidir. Bulduğunuz makaleleri başlangıçta sözlük yardımı ile yavaş yavaş da olsa okumaya çalışırsanız zamanla İngilizce’sini anlamaya başlayabilirsiniz.

Kolay gelsin,

Duygu
burçinn said,

Kasım 16, 2009 @ 09:56

kertenkelelerdeki vücut onarımını araştırıyorum amapek bir şey de bılamadım.nasıl ve neden bulabılırım?
uygar said,

Aralık 14, 2009 @ 06:05

Merhaba,

Konuyu zevkle okudum ve açıkçası biraz kıskandım. Rejenerasyon çalışmaya başlayan bir biyoloji öğrencisi olarak yaptığınız çalışmaları ve verilen destekleri gördükçe gaza geldim diyebilirim (:

dozpolat@… adresine rejenerasyon ile ilgili bir mail atmıştım, vaktiniz olunca cevaplayacağınızı ümit ediyorum.

Kolay gelsin.
Lorems said,

Mart 23, 2010 @ 19:27

Yine evrim konusu, yine kavga. :))
Ben neden bu ikilemi bir arada görünce şaşırmıyorum artık :))
Noktasal mutasyonlar gerçek, kalıtsal varvasyonlarda.
Fakat insan bazında evrim?İşte burada 5000 yıl önceki bir insan yapısıyla, şuanki insan yapısı arasında fark olmadığını görünce (sahte iskeletler hariç) insan bazında evrimin hayaldan öte olmadığını düşünesi geliyor insanın niyeyse…
Amfoes said,

Nisan 14, 2010 @ 01:24

Selamlar Duygu,

Pek vaktim olmadığı için iki not yazıp kaçacağım.

1. Günter Wagner’in çalışmalarının ilgini çekebileceğini düşünüyorum.

http://pantheon.yale.edu/~gpwagner/index.html

2. Rejenerasyonun esprisinin ben bir şekilde gelişimsel kanalizasyona (canalization of development) bağlanacağını düşünüyorum (Vakit olsa da düşüneceğimize oturup uğraşsak ne güzel olurdu.) Kısaca bahsetmek gerekirse, gelişimsel kanalizasyon fenotip çeşitliliğinin gelişimsel mekanizmalar tarafından sınırlandırılması. Yani fenotip mutasyona yanıt vermiyor. Örneğin bir elimizde beş parmak oluşu, ancak dört veya altı parmağın çok çok nadir şekilde görülmesi. Beş parmak için seçilim o kadar kuvvetli ki bu fenotipe ilişkin mutasyonlar seçilime söz geçiremiyor.

Bununla birlikte bu kanalizasyon mekanizması halen tam olarak anlaşılmış bir olgu değil. Benim kafama yatan hipoteze göre bu mekanizma genlerin sinyal güzergahlarında, mikro ölçekte gerçekleşen bir seçilimin sonucu (daha doğrusu bir yan ürünü).

Rejenerasyon ile ilgili olarak mikro ölçekte benzer bir seçilim oluyor muhtemelen.

Sevgiler,
Duygu said,

Nisan 14, 2010 @ 14:17

Amfoes, Günter Wagner’i biliyorum evet, pek benim çalışma konumla alakalı olmasa da makalelerini hobi niyetine okuyorum, zira çalışmak istediğim konuları araştırıyor.

“Canalization of development” derken acaba evolutionary constraints’ten mi bahsediyorsun emin olamadım, sonra biraz bakınınca başlı başına bir kavram olduğunu, ama ne yalan söyleyeyim daha önce duymadığım bir kavram olduğunu farkettim. Bilmediğime çok şaşırdım. Okuyup öğreneyim. Teşekkür ederim :)

Rejenerasyonun evrimiyle ilgili az biraz şurada bir şeylerden bahsetmiştim: http://www.turkishjournal.com/i.php?newsid=6350

Selamlar,

Duygu
murat kıbıcı said,

Nisan 15, 2010 @ 03:23

bilimle uğraşan herkese teşekür ederim evet benim meselem sol yüzük parmağı 15 gün önce yüzük koparması yaşadım ve şu anda yok ne yapabilirsinbiz
Duygu said,

Nisan 15, 2010 @ 10:42

Murat Bey, durumunuza çok üzüldüm fakat malesef henüz benim elimden gelecek bir şey yok bu konuda.

Geçmiş olsun.
Taha Emre said,

Mayıs 2, 2010 @ 16:40

Selamlar ,

Bu proje aslında çok zamandır benim aklımdaydı desem hiç kimse bana inanmaz bunu çok açık bir şekilde biliyorum . Dün hezarfen çelebinin hangi şartlarda hangi ortamlarda nasıl bir destan yazdığını internetten çok derin bir şekilde araştırdım ve çok etkilendim. Sonra birden aklıma küçüklükten beri çok sevdiğim hatta onlarla yan yana fotoğraflarım bile olan kertenkeleler geldi . Benim aklımdaki proje sizinkinden çok farklı . Ben bu tıppi terimleri fazla bilmem internetten araştırdım Fazla bişi anlamadım . Benim aklımda bulunan mesele kangren meselesiydi aylardır . Yani insanların ellerini kollarını kesmektense bir çeşit farklı ilaç geliştirip yaralı bölgeye uygulayıp, bu ” iğnede olabilir” bölgenin kendini yenilemek mümkünleşse güzel olmazmı . Burdada aklıma ilk gelen kertenkeleler oldu . Kuyrukları kopuyor ve yerine yenisi geliyor rejenerasyonla. Bence insanın kemil yapısıyla haynanınki bir olmaz dokular aynı olur ama. Cevabınızı en kısa sürede bekliyorum… Tıp okumuyorum ama düşünüyorum ve varım… Sizi de ne gazetede gördüm nede duydum .İnternetten araştırdım iyice bu işle uğraşan felan varmı diye sonra biyolokum sitesinde sizin yukardaki yazılarını okuyunca merakım giderek arttı :) …
Meren'in Fotoğraf Günlüğü » Blog Archive » Dostum Petrol Sızıntısı Demiştin Ama Bunlar Yengeç said,

Mayıs 2, 2010 @ 21:53

[...] bir süre sonra büyük kıskacı sağda olan bir yengeç olarak hayatına devam ediyormuş). Rejenerasyon açısından ne kadar enteresan olursa olsun sosyal olarak çok sıkıcı bir durum olmalı. – Aa [...]
Amfoes said,

Haziran 28, 2010 @ 09:18

Duygu,

Bak ne buldum! Bu ablanin ve ekibinin calismalari oldum olasi ilgimi cekmistir, sana da paslayayim dedim.

http://www.crt-dresden.de/index.php?id=46

“Molecular control of spinal cord regeneration” mevzusu basli basina sukela bir durum.

Canalization konusunda da vakit bulacagim gibi sanki. Eger ciddi bir seyler cikarsa ortaya seni haberdar ederim.

Guzel bir literatur taramasi icin: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/432265

Sevgiler,

Meren’e selamlar.

Gabriel Conroy
Düygü said,

Haziran 28, 2010 @ 09:21

Aman efenim Tanaka ablamızı bilmem mi. Hatta yanında çalışmayı düşünüyor idim (Dresden’e gitmiştim hastası olmuştum şehrin) fakat benim hoca “o kadın biraz delişmenmiş, çalışması zormuş diye duydum haberin olsun” deyince vaz geçtim. Bizim hoca öyle diyosa bi bildiği vardır diye.

Verdiğin bağlantı hata veriyor :(

Aleyküm :)
Amfoes said,

Temmuz 4, 2010 @ 14:52

Yarın Tanaka ile konuşacağım. Varsa bir mesajın ileteyim. Selamını zaten söylerim. :)
kerem said,

Ekim 11, 2011 @ 07:53

ne günler gelmiş geçmiş duygu… ne oldu bu araştırmanız sen ordan da mı ayrıldın?? merak ettim??
STRATEGIES AND LOGICAL ERRORS « aysuaygul said,

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Kesinlikle atladığın(m)ız bir şey var buna eminim… aynı örnek deniz yıldızında da var bilmiyorum dikkat ettinimiz mi? buna paralel olarak köpekbalığının kopan/kırılan/düşen dişlerini 24 saat içersinde yenilemesi de var? örnek çoğaltılabilir…. Asıl sorulacak soru şu; bu canlıların bu özelliği bulunarak neye işaret ediliyor?(yaşadığı ortam bileşenleri,yediği besinler,hava şartları v.s gibi) benimde kafamda olan olay şu; bunu insan genetiğine adapte edildiği takdir de kısaca oluşacak olaylar silsilesine br göz atalım:
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şimdi gelelim bulamamızın cevabına;
bulanlar zaten zamanında bulmuş ama kendiler buldukları ile beraber kaybolmuş!!!
ben de kendi çapımda araştırma yapıyorum sizler kadar olmasa da. ama bir nokta da insanoğlu na göre normların dışına çıkıyor sonuçlar. yani “hadi canım yok yahu derecesine ” bunun için önce bulunması gereken durum “beyni nasıl hızlı ve kalıcı şekilde kullanılması” bana göre; yoksa benim de bir fikrim var “örümcek ağından çelik yelek” gibi mesela çünki dünya daki en sağlam ipliksi yapı. şöyleki normalden çok daha hafif (giydiğiniz t-short farzedelim 15gr. örümcek ağı çelik yelek 7.5gr. gibi!) bu da güzel bir fikir(bu arada milyarlaca örümcek beslemeye gerek yok ağ için) başta yazdığım gibi önce beyninizin nitro düğmesine basmakta fayda var. bunuda eski kitaplarda bulabiliriz. ben ilk önce o yoldan gidicem sizi bilmiyorum eğer başarırsam şayet size çok kısa zamanda yetişirim….beynimizde bütün bu soruların cevabı var …. saygılarımla D-MAx32 & SURREAL 80′
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